Woohoo, thanks to our friend Scott Murray for lending us his boxed set of B5! To avoid spoilers, our main challenge is going to be NOT looking too hard at the covers of each box until we actually watch that particular season.
But back to “Believers”…I have to admit that episode wasn’t my favourite, though I did love the scene where Ivanova pleads with Sinclair to send her on a mission to rescue the starliner Asimov (heh…love the ship name).
Ivanova: I think I’ll just walk to and fro for a while, maybe over to my console. After that, maybe I’ll try pacing fro and to, you know, just for the kick of it.
Jeff and I were both convinced we had seen the actress who played the sick boy’s mother before. I thought it was because she had played the captain of the Enterprise from the past in Voyager so I started snooping through the bios
and accidentally stumbled upon Mila Furlan’s bio. DELENN IS THE SAME ACTRESS WHO PLAYS ROUSSEAU IN LOST?!????
Speaking of B5 actors I realize I’ve seen elsewhere. Dan and others have pointed out that the actor who played Lennier was also the same actor who played Will Robinson in the original Lost In Space (”Danger, Will Robinson!!”).
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Whoa. I had no idea. And I’m realizing (duh) that I should probably avoid browsing cast bios for now since I’m more likely to come across character spoilers that way (”Hey, I thought he was dead! But he can’t be if he appears in 20 more B5 episodes…”)
But could someone out there confirm if my suspicion is right, that the sick boy’s mother is the Enterprise Captain in that Voyager time travel episode? If so, I liked her character way better in Voyager.
Sinclair: Sometimes doing the right thing doesn’t change anything.
I suspect that one of the reasons this episode was not my favourite is because it focussed so much on Dr. Franklin. I’m still not crazy about Franklin’s character. When the boy’s father said that he’d kill Franklin if the doctor went ahead with the operation, I found myself cheering inside because that would mean that the woman doctor (Dr. Maya Hernandez) would probably take over, and her character seems much more interesting.
Looks like Dr. Franklin survived, however. Oh well.
Jeff and I have decided to watch until we’ve finished Season One before watching The Gathering, by the way. There was another mention of something that happened in the pilot again: Kosh’s operation. I’m curious to see how that came about.
Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
Next episode: Survivors.
I’ve been very much enjoying everyone’s comments, by the way. Not having a ton to say about this episode except that I wish there had been more Ivanova and less Franklin, I thought I’d post a few excerpts here.
From Steve Macdonald:
“Think back to those long ago days of yesteryear… when the first season of Babylon 5 was acted the same as the *second* season of Star Trek, TNG.
Seriously- when you look at it in historical context; the acting in much of the first season, while wooden, was head-and-shoulders above the first season of any of Bab5’s contemporaries. Hence the reason people got hooked so easily at the time.
Katy and I just re-watched the first four seasons about six months ago; and it does stand up to the test of time. I’ll be reading on with you. :)”
From Zander:
“If it makes you feel any better, my first reaction to Londo was exactly the same. I thought he’d maybe escaped from Lost In Space or somewhere. And I think that was exactly what we were meant to think.
JMS is going to do that to you a lot. Thank you for letting us watch. :)”
From Dave Weingart:
“It’s so hard not to tell you which characters have lots of growth ahead of them.
I envy you in the experience seeing it for the first time.”
From Carol:
“One of several unique things about Bab5 is that JMS had a complete story from beginning to end in his mind, and he stayed true to that. There are only 5 seasons because that was when he had finished the story. There was no more to *that* story. I think this is also what led to his writing practically all of the screen scripts.
No one (including several of the actors) believed him when we warned them of this. But he meant it, and it’s what he did. This is more a visual novel, than a TV show. I think that is what gave him the freedom to do things with a story line you just can’t do with a series meant to last as long as possible. And it gives the series a powerful authorial voice.”
From Hvideo:
“As others have mentioned, the entire 5-year story outline was complete before the program began, so it plays more like a novel in many ways. There is a introductory period with hints of things to come, then the action begins to get a bit faster, then starts building and building, heads to a climax, and then goes into the aftermath. If you were reading THE LORD OF THE RINGS you would still be in The Birthday party section. Not nearly enough to get a good idea of the entire novel.”
From Lyanne:
“In spite of the cheesy special effects (which, I had to keep reminding myself, were cutting-edge for their time) I did find that this series aged better than TNG did. I still enjoy watching TNG, but I find that the merit of several of the episodes these days doesn’t go much beyond nostalgia. When B5 premiered I was eleven; when i re-watched a few years ago, I found I could appreciate new and different aspects of the story, often aspects that I didn’t understand or didn’t enjoy as a young teen with a low tolerance for ’scary.’”
From Leslie:
“We rewatched the entire series after Simon was born — Peter gave me the season 1 dvds while I was in labour (the other seasons followed soon after), and television shows on dvd are ideal while nursing a new baby. We also saw Buffy, a lot of Danger Man and Rome that way…”
From Bruce Adelsohn:
“It’s hard not to like almost all of the recurring characters — and, at times, hard not to dislike them. They’re very real, that way, which is the primary reason I love the show. (Its storylines are excellent, too, but it’s the characterization that brings it fully to life.)”
From Tirtzah:
“Hi I just found this blog, I used to read Waiting For Frodo. Being a big B5 geek I love hearing new reactions to the show.
I just wanted to point out that the hand switching the fruit in the background of the Minbari ceremony is actually G’Kar’s gloved hand. He’s switching his fruit for the one belonging to the person next to him (Ivanova maybe?) because he suspects his is poisoned. Earlier in the scene you can see him sniffing his fruit suspiciously.
PS. I would recommend watching “The Gathering”, while it’s rather rough, it’s still part of the canon and there are several important parts that are referred to throughout the show. So it’s a good idea to watch it just so you can follow those plot points when they come up.”
From Mandragora:
“I just stumbled on your blog quite accidentally and I hope you don’t mind if I comment. I’m a day-1 B5 fan and I always like reading comments by “B5-virgins” - but yours are particularly enjoyable. You’ve got the right attitude - not uncritical, but open minded, inquisitive, curious, and with a genuine love for the complex and unexpected. My prognosis: You’re gonna love this show :)”
From Dormouse:
“*laughing* I really enjoyed reading this, mainly because of how you were writing it. . . halfway through I was chorusing along . . . out loud . . . at work . . . “Don’t answer that!”
You’re half making me want to watch the series myself, but finding it would either be a pain or expensive, and I tell myself I don’t have time. . .”
From Shane:
“I’ve been waiting for you to get to this episode! It’s so hard to comment without spoilers!
…I’m rewatching B5 since I haven’t seen it for a long time and I couldn’t remember anything about the episodes you were talking about. It’s great stuff!”
From Julie:
“Oooo, now you’re making me want to watch it again. Good questions all.
I remember being blown away by some of the answers, and by how the characters develop, like Real People. Characters you hated, turn into characters you love. Then hate again, then love…”
From Allison:
“Yay, love all your questions. You have some truly brilliant episodes ahead of you…
And, again I’d say, if you truly want to stay spoiler-free you are best to stay away from B5 websites. “The Lurker’s Guide” is fascinating, but is probably best left to a second watching and best appreciated then, too. As others have said, if you are getting hooked, you will want to see this series more than once. I’m about three-quarters of the way through Season 1 now for the third time and I’m just as enthralled as I was the first time.”
From Phil:
“You do realise you now need to write the song “Don’t answer that!” in which you throw out ever more crazed plot questions only to immediately follow each with an urgent “Don’t answer that!”
Meanwhile I will just reassure you that yes, there is a reason why the Minbari surrendered, why there is a hole in Sinclair’s mind, and why that particular Minbari ceremony will turn out to be doubly appropriate. And all of these you will discover in due course! The nice thing about B5 is that unlike some shows which just throw out most questions pretty much at random and never get around to addressing them, those in B5 will mostly turn out to be answered. Eventually…”
From Gary McGath:
“The answers are at least as interesting as you’re guessing. I don’t remember them all myself now. Maybe I should go out and buy myself a set of seasons 1-4 now!
… after I see whether US income tax leaves me broke, though.”
From Melissa:
“Hmmm … I’d suggest saving the Lurker’s Guide for later, as it’s probably a bit more detailed than you’d want for now.
Save it for when you watch the whole series thru a second (or third or fourth) time. And you will want to watch it at least one more time to see how much the whole series ties together.”
From Chris C:
“Yes, the Lurkers’ Guide does seem to be written with knowledge of the whole series. The summaries on the TV.com listing however seem to be safe.
You now have several of us wanting to re-watch it with you *g*…”
From Jane G:
“I loved B5 from the start, but made the same stupid mistake with Buffy - watched an episode, thought it silly, and missed several seasons before discovering how wonderful it was. It took me a long time to catch up.
Phil gave me the full B5 series in December. We just got to episode 13, which I had remembered as the most important of Season 1. It was the one that took B5 from mere entertainment to absolutely enthralling for me. Even better the second time through, knowing what is to come.”
From Terence Chua:
“Heh. I was waiting for you to get to this one. You really should watch ‘The Gathering’, where Sinclair talks about the Battle of the Line. The rest of the ‘pilot’ isn’t amazing, but that is where JMS’s lyricism shows through, and where the title of the episode comes from. (So I was really excited when I first saw the title of the episode listing, knowing that we were going to see flashbacks of that last battle)
(I’m paraphrasing from memory): ‘The sky was full of stars, and every star was an exploding ship. One of ours.’ Chills.”
From A_Tim:
“On the actor’s in make-up: There were a number of actors that played multiple roles because once the production company knew they could tolerate the make-up and masks *and* hit their marks and deliver their lines, they were welcome back. The fact that one actor got a number of guest shots as different characters had no meaning to the story, it was that he was good, a known variable (and available).”
From Phillip Mills:
“I have written one B5 song. I don’t play it often because, frankly, it’s not a very good song. The only thing that makes it worth mentioning is that it’s a parody of an old gospel tune that goes, ‘Farther along, we’ll know all about it. Farther along, we’ll understand why.’”
It was irresistible. :-)”
13 comments ↓
I think the Dr. Franklin story came too early. It is a good story, with a unique outcome, where nobody wins. However, the is no real loss to Sinclair if Franklin were to leave B5 at this time, no real loss to the auidience. We are just not that invested in him.
I just watched ‘The Gathering’ again last night. It is the one from the B5 movies box set, the re-edited and the musicaly rescored version. Yes, it can wait until the end of Season 1. Do not listen to the JMS commentary until you have seen the entire series–also a good choice for any individual episode, as those that comment do it from knowing that they and the audience have seen the entire run.
Don’t write off Doctor Franklin too soon. He’s like one of those people who always comes to conventions, watches the events, listens to the filking, is affable enough when spoken to but doesn’t initiate conversation…he’s a closed box. Which means you just know he’s going to get opened up at some point.
Looking at SteveMac’s comment, it wasn’t until I started watching B5 that I really understood why I had lost interest in and stopped watching ST:TNG (somewhere around 5th/6th season). Which could probably be summed up by “Episode end reset button”.
With *very* rare exceptions most seasons of TNG (at least up to the point at which I stopped) could be played with the episodes in pretty much any order and it just wouldn’t matter. In B5 it very definitely does, and I think it may well have been this show that changed the whole paradigm of network TV from the purely episodic original Trek or TNG type shows to the heavily story arc driven Buffy/Angel, Heroes etc (or for that matter even subsequent Star Trek shows. It made it “acceptable” for shows to do this - whether it was the only or even main driver, I couldn’t say, but to my perception there’s a big difference in what was around before and after the success of B5.
In any given B5 episode, the characters and their relationships are very seldom exactly where they were at the end as they were at the start. Oh, sometimes just a nudge, a growth, an edging together or distancing, but it’s almost always there. Plus every so often the hint of something bigger developing underneath…
The actress who plays the mother is Tricia O’Neil. Per IMDB, she appears in both ST:TNG as Capt. Rachel Garrett (2 eps) and ST:DS9 as Korinas (1 ep), but not in ST:Voyager at all. But since the Next Gen eps are time travel (with the Enterprise:C), you may be conflating series.
I wasn’t crazy about this episode, either. I appreciate both that it’s got all kinds of drama, and that it serves to give us some serious insights both into the doctor and Sheridan, but it just doesn’t grab me. (Interestingly, I’ve said the same about other works by David Gerrold, who wrote the ep. I appreciate them intellectually, but somehow, he just misses my handles somehow, so that I can ultimately take or leave his work.)
Just to follow up on Phil’s comment, having just finished watching the first season of the show again, the one thing that always surprises me when I sit down to rewatch B5 (third time now) is how very different some of the characters are in the first season from where they will end up in personality and judgement by later seasons. There really is a profound difference and one of the joys of re-watching is to see exactly again how that growth took place, for better or for worse. There’s no other series I can think of that I’ve watched all the way through a few times that strikes me quite as strongly that way.
It rather reminds me each year of going from a Gr. 5 class in June to a new Gr. 5 class in September. You really can’t appreciate just how much growth and change a Gr. 5 student goes through in a year until you see just how young and inexperienced your -new- Gr. 5 class in comparison to the class that just left you :).
I wasn’t too impressed with this episode either. I felt the story had been told many times before in other sci-fi (and other medical dramas for that matter!). In just about every show that has a medical team there’s always an episode that deals with the ethics of cultures/religions that forbid operations.
In most of them the doctor performs the operation anyway and usually the recipient/parent is grateful in the end. This episode was a little different because the parents kill the child after the operation which somehow redeems the story slightly from cliché hell. I would have liked to see the doctor stand by and watch the kid die but I guess that doesn’t really make for good TV. *shrug*
If course, you’re seeing a few things in the opposite direction than most of us. We got used to Mira as Delenn, and then had a new reaction when seeing her in LOST for the first time.
Actually, this was one of my favorite episodes for a variety of reasons.
1) It realistically portrays people driven by a belief system utterly orthogonal to the standard belief system, in a way that does not demean or belittle them.
2) Franklin is a study in medical arrogance that is all to real. He _thinks_ he’s working with the patient and the patient’s family, but he is really just selling them. He thinks the child falls for his “guappa egg” ploy, but he doesn’t. He takes matters into his own hands and feels totally self-righteous about it. Until he discovers the actual outcome.
3) The reactions of the other governments are equally realistic, from Lando’s cynical “how much justice can you afford?” to Sinclair’s “no, I’m going to draw a line between one set of circumstances and another.”
One of JMS’ great attributes as a writer and producer on the show was his ability to actually step outside himself and his frame of reference to write believably about others.
Both Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine share a lot of similarities. I’ll leave the conspiracy theorists to come up with who ripped off who, but in any case, both were far superior than your standard SF TV fare because, as Phil says, the arc mattered. In DS9’s case, it was far more suited for the arc than TNG ever was because whereas the Enterprise could warp off into the proverbial sunset at the end of every episode, the folks on DS9 had to hang around and deal with the consequences of their actions.
TNG was about exploring, and DS9 was about setting down roots, making a home… I guess as I grow older, that appeals to me more and more. Babylon 5 is also about establishing a community, ties, and that actions, and people matter. Later on, Delenn sums up one of the themes that B5 returns to again and again (not really a spoiler) as: “[N]o one else will ever build a place like this. Humans share one unique quality: they build communities.”
For me, DS9 and B5 are both brilliant shows, but DS9 has a slight edge for reasons I won’t get into here (one day, when you’ve finished watching B5, I’ll be happy to tell you why). But Allison’s observation about character growth is one of the things I love about DS9 as well. I keep going back to the pilot episode of DS9 and there’s this scene when Commander Sisko looks on the space station for the first time and I always think to myself, “You have no idea what the next seven years are going to bring.”
But this isn’t an advertisement for DS9. This is just to say that the story arc, the character development, is what elevates both series and changed the face of genre TV from that point on. And if you’re enjoying the first season, wait till you get to the second, because that’s when it started really getting good. And the fourth… it’s still the most epic 22 hours of SF television ever produced. I envy you.
Ya, didn’t like this one much. Nothing in the way of arc development to speak of..
Geez Deb, you could have at least wiped the dust off the top of those boxes!
They’ve been sitting in my DVD collection for some time now, haven’t moved. Although, reading your virgin posts makes me want to watch them all over again. But right now I’m trying (REALLY trying) to get into “Crusade”, the series that follows B5. Think it only lasted 1 season?
Scott
^^Crusade, unfortunately, only lasted 13 episodes.
I liked believers, I think the reasons the ambassadors gave for rejecting the parents’ request told a lot about their cultures: Delenn declined because of her beliefs (and ironically the parents, of all people, couldn’t understand it), for Londo it was all about money, for G’Kar all about power.
The positions were entirely incompatible, no-one was “right”, and there aren’t many shows that would have had the guts to actually kill that kid in the end.
I hadn’t even heard of Bab5 until a SCS_11 told me about this episode. This was the episode that made him sit up and start watching, because it didn’t go the easy way — convince everyone to save the kid.
It was that difference — that courage — that drew me to Bab5. So, no, this isn’t my favorite of stories. And no, it’s not *crucial* to any of the arcs. Except that, in the way this small battle plays out in the different races; the way it plays out in the different characters; and the way it plays out in my own mind … yeah, all that was part of the character and arc developments. And since it was what brought me to Bab5, I have a special little place for it.
Terence Chua lands on the opposite side of the Bab5/DS9 argument than I. I think Bab5 is superior for two main reasons: The show is the most literate program I had ever seen, and remains so today. You don’t need to catch all the literary allusions to catch the power of the story, but when you do, you know JMS is tipping his hat to shared knowledge and shared appreciation for all the story tellers that came before us.
DS9 kept more of the “We’re Star Trek” quality, for me. Mind you, I *loved* Star Trek, and liked what I was able to see of DS9. But it never challenged me culturally as well as intelligently.
Secondly, DS9 simply ran too long, for my taste. There were too many episodes that were just a cute, throw away, one time, story-let. That works fine in a long running series, so I’m not knocking it. But it makes for less intensity. Even when JMS appears to be throwing something away, it comes back and haunts you. There is nothing wasted. That quality I mentioned of JMS keeping to the integrity of the story over money, career, actors, friendships … that really gave him scope to kick his viewers in the gut. DS9 just didn’t have that power.
That integrity to his initial vision, also gave JMS a bit of a challenge, since TV is not like a novel, and actors do come and go or get sick or … JMS had to constantly think about his trap doors. If one character were to leave the group, how would that part of the arc continue?
The times he did have to go to the trap doors, it didn’t really show, per se. But the thinking that went into keeping those doors, and creating new ones, gave the 5-year telling a sense of inevitabliity, destiny. I liked that flavor.
Debbie, I want so much — so much! — to quote a future line from one of the characters every time you talk about what you do or do not like about any given character in this first season. But, that line was not put in the first season for a reason. So I won’t say it.
Are any of the other veterans having the same tongue-biting impulse?